Powerful Tips for an Effective Business Strategy

Hello Everyone. Welcome to this episode of Ecoffee with Experts. I am your host, Matt Fraser, and on today’s show, I have with me Stephen White. Stephen is the director of Spaced Digital, a B2B digital marketing and Web development agency located in Brixton, London, United Kingdom. He holds a bachelor’s degree in business management from the University of Sheffield and has over eight years of experience in digital marketing, helping business owners and entrepreneurs’ skill and grow their business ventures using proven digital marketing strategies and tactics. When not working on marketing campaigns for clients, Stephen enjoys long-distance running, taking his dog for walks around Cambridge and spending time with his friends and family. Steve, thank you so much for being here. It’s a pleasure to have you on the show.

Thanks a lot for having me. And I am really looking forward to this.

All right. So how would your high school teachers describe you?

Good question. They would dangle the carrot in front of me. I used to play a lot of times on sports teams. So, if I would misbehave in class, they would be like, you won’t be able to play football if you’re misbehaving. So, I was a bit mischievous, but they would keep me in shape by saying I couldn’t play sports if I didn’t behave. So yeah, I think mischievous would be the answer to that.

Mischievous, right on. What inspired you to pursue a career in digital marketing?

I think I was always out of university. I was always like, I want to do marketing, I want to do marketing. Before you start working on it, you think it’s just a narrow discipline. You know, I want to work in marketing. And then when you start to learn about it a bit more, you realize there are so many levels to it. So, I luckily had a brother who is two years older than me. He is a project manager for a web development agency and so when I was looking for a job and I was saying, I want to work in marketing, I want to work in digital marketing, I want to do something similar to you. He was like, hold on. My skill set is built around project management and it suits that role. Would you rather go into like PPC, SEO and the different, different kind of channels like this. So we kind of sat down together and worked out for me that SEO would be a good kind of route to go in. So, Yeah, it was. It had that side to it and then my dad runs his own company, which is an aerial photography company. He flies around the UK taking photographs of various different things. He had his own website. So, me bright-eyed and bushy-tailed looking to try out my new SEO knowledge. Luckily, he let me try out a couple of things on his site and so I managed to do it back then, but I managed to get a couple of blog posts ranking on his website and then I went to a few agencies and I was like, look, I’ve done this on the website for my dad, can I get an internship? And that’s kind of how I first got my foot in the door of agencies.

So that’s awesome. How did you and your brother deduce? Like, what was it that made you realize it was SEO and not PPC?

I think because, for PPC, I’m not a numbers guy, I’m not as methodical. I quite enjoy the freedom of SEO. There is a tried-and-true stuff that’s worked in the past, but because the algorithm is, you know, kept under lock and key and it’s more of a mystery. There’s no hard and fast set of rules for SEO, it’s more inquisitive. If you dig into it, you test things out, you try things out, see what works, and what doesn’t. And I thought that suited me a little bit better in terms of my skill set.

Yeah, because SEO involves like. Well, they both do, but I say marketing, in general, involves it. I don’t know whether this is true or not, the left brain, right brain sort of deal. When I was in school, they talked about how you could go in different directions with web design. You can go to the creative side like being the one that does the designs and the mock-ups and the photoshops and I thought, that’s not me, even though I like making graphics, but I don’t want to learn how to do that, that’s not me. To the person who does is to be a coder. where you like, you’re learning all the code and learning the HTML and I thought, wow, that’s a little more me. But then there was the marketing side of things. I’m like, I like to make stuff work, I like to solve problems and find solutions to those problems and constantly be learning about those things and, it’s like putting a puzzle together. Even with SEO, it’s like trying to put this puzzle together. The first puzzle of how to get ranked and the second puzzle of the pieces to put it together to make it rank.

Yeah. I think that’s what kind of I think appealed to me as well. It seemed like there were a lot of different skill sets in that you could go down the technical route and be a very heavy kind of more developer-focused SEO who focuses on the technical side of things. Or you could go more down the content, the creative content or the content marketing side of things, go down that route. And I think that appealed to me where it was like you had a few different options and then yeah, as sort of getting more into it and learning more about it’s kind of yeah, more than SEO does now, especially encompasses so many different areas, you know, user experience, the development side of it. Like site speed and Google’s called their vitals and just there’s lots of stuff that goes into it. So, I felt like it was a good group.

Yeah. So how do you keep up with all of it?

I think that initially as you had said before like you were saying, you used to carve out a bit of time every day to stay up to date with reading certain publications and news on digital marketing. I’m the same. I’ve got my trusty kind of news sites and newsletters that I follow for certain people. So, it’s a case of just still reading those, still taking the time, because it’s a new thing. You know, if you didn’t look at the news or say, look at LinkedIn and follow people in the community, stuff like people’s recent helpful content updates could just pass you by. So, I definitely think LinkedIn is a good source for it. But then the typical kind of search engine journal and search engine roundtable and those kinds of things and then there’s the SEO FOMO newsletter as well, which is really good.

Which one’s that?

I think it’s called SEOFOMO.

SEOFOMO newsletter. I’ve never heard of that one. Maybe I’m going to go check that out.

Yeah, it’s a nice one to sort of summarizing a lot of thought leaders in the industry, the content that they put out on their blog and their company websites, not just the large publications that tend to kind of put out similar content.

Are there any secret Facebook groups or Slack communities for SEO that you know of and would care to share?

Not necessarily Facebook, I’ve never been so big on Facebook. I’ve always tried to shy away from using Facebook quite a lot. But that was the SEO Blueprint Community

Yeah, SEO blueprint community

They’ve got a Slack channel which is now paid, which is $49 or something a month. But I’ve not signed up for that yet. But when it used to be free because we had bought the course, the blueprint course of our own store, and that was a great community of people. And I think it will probably just only get better now because they’ve charged for it. So, it will only be people kind of looking to get the most out of it as well now. So, I think it’s not something we’ve jumped in and done yet, but it’s definitely one that’s on our horizons kind of sign up too.

Yeah. There’s also another SEO community, called SEO Signals Lab. Have you heard that one?

I haven’t.

That’s a huge community. You should join SEO Signals Lab.

No.

Steven Kang, the founder of SEO Signals Lab is definitely somebody to follow when it comes to SEO. So, how was your experience at Mindshare, how did that impact your career? Was that where you did your internship?

No, I’d done an internship before in a small local agency, and then moved to another similar size agency where my brother actually worked. So, he got me the SEO job at the agency he was working at. Well, he likes to say he got me the job.

Maybe he had a little hand in it, but at the end of the day, they’re not going to hire someone who doesn’t know what they’re doing, even with an endorsement from a brother.

Yeah, exactly. So yes, we worked together for nearly three or four years, I think. And then there was a boutique kind of ecommerce agency. I first joined, there were about ten people and then it got up to about 20-25 people. And then I had only worked in small agencies in the past, so I moved to Mindshare, which was a much larger company.

Oh yeah. How many people were there?

I’m trying to think now in terms of like this, you know, there were thousands of employees, I think at Mindshare there were hundreds. And then with the parent company included, which was WPP and that had thousands of people. So, lots of different kinds of similar agencies. That was kind of my first experience of working at a large agency like that on much larger clients, for example. So it was good to get that kind of experience, working at a small agency and then working at the larger agency.

What did you find the difference between the two?

I mean, I didn’t like the larger clients as much because there was a lot more red tape. You know, the sweet spot for me is it’s kind of like smaller companies with, you know, like, you know, even like 50 to, say, 200 employees, that kind of range where it’s not yeah, there’s not too much red tape to kind of go through where some of the clients that we were working with, we would suggest the change it would then have to get fed into the legal team, get signed off. And then by the time you made the change, it’s like, oh, we want to make another change. So, it was a lot of stuff like that. Whereas I had quite enjoyed at the smaller agencies a lot more personal relationship with the marketing manager or the business owner, and they get more. It’s more kind of like working together with them. They’re really motivated for growth. They’re very heavily invested in the company because that you have a founder or part of the founding team and it could work like that. So, I think that was the major difference to me and I think that’s where like even if we had the opportunity to push towards, say, working with the Nike and Adidas kind of like large clients, I would still prefer to work with smaller businesses where we have that personal relationship and really just help people kind of grow their company from a certain size up to the next level.

Yeah, I’m the same way I don’t like an enterprise level. You know, I love helping Service based businesses that are in that like one- or two-man operation because they can’t afford it. That’s where you steer them towards training and you know you’re going to have to go. You have to do a self-guided thing. Like, give me equity in your company and I’ll do it. Smaller companies or medium-sized businesses are exactly what you described. And it’s interesting how each and every one of us has to, like, carve out a niche. You know what we’re going to do. Like I would say, doing marketing, like I was in the car industry for seven years and doing marketing for car dealerships is completely different. Then doing marketing for a plumber.

Yeah,100%.

That’s the point I’m trying to make is like not only do we need to choose a skill set that we want to get good at but then also an agency. So when did you pivot from realizing that the employee lifestyle wasn’t for you? Did you pivot to becoming like when you grew your business? Did you start off going, freelancing and then it evolved into an agency? Or can you tell me about that journey?

Yeah, yeah. So, I think for me, the self-belief. So, before even kind of starting it, the idea of being able to start the company had kind of come from my dad because I’d seen him. He’d always owned his own company and kind of for like, okay, that is an option. You can’t own your own company. Like, my dad does it. It’s not like a thing that kind of seems very far away. So, I think it helped initially to have that idea and then when I worked at that agency with my brother, we were a small team and you sat next to the two owners of the company. You hear the sales call, you hear them putting in all this work around the business, and you learn all of these skills. So, I’m sitting right next to them picking up all of this stuff, that’s amazing. And that, again, kind of gave me the belief of like, oh, okay, like I could do that too, I personally feel I’m good at SEO. I can do what they do and start a company to sell it to other people. So again, that’s where that little bit of belief came from and when I moved to Mindshare and I went there to go and work on a client that they’d paused the budget. And I didn’t end up working on that client, I worked on a different client and there wasn’t much work for that client. I had a lot of spare time and I was a little bit bored twiddling my thumbs about kind of kickstarted the idea of like, okay, let’s try to start getting some freelance clients on the side. And I’ve luckily found an agency just down the road that was looking to outsource their SEO. They had too much SEO work. So, I was like, Yeah, I can do that. I’ll help you charge a very low day, right? And then slowly they had enough hours from them and a couple of other clients that I’d got from just word of mouth. I think the biggest thing for me just came from me telling people I’m a freelance SEO now, even though I had just one client, I was just telling it to people and I think the thing that helped is that I’d set up the company’s website, so I’d set up like the landing page for space to come up with the company name. And, that again, I think made it seem a little bit more real, which helped us get a couple more clients because they were like, Oh, look, he has an actual landing page, he has this. So it went from having enough clients to move from my full-time job and get paid more doing the freelance stuff and then slowly kind of built that up, got one employee, got two employees and it just slowly built up from there.

So that’s a pretty amazing story though. So, for instance, In regard to hiring the employee. Number one, there are so many skills that are involved in running an agency. Yeah. You know, it’s. Amazingly, you got to sit beside someone who you saw them doing this else. Yeah, I know. It’s one thing to be a practitioner of SEO or Google ads or whatever. It’s completely another thing to switch to the business side of things. And many people can’t do it. They don’t have either the aptitude or the skill sets or the acumen or the knowledge or whatever the case may be. In some ways, I guess you indirectly had a mentor, which I’ve heard is very important, having a mentor. So, how did you progress to replicate yourself? When did you know that you needed to hire an employee would be my first question?

Yeah, It was a tricky one. I didn’t realize I could almost, it’s a weird thing. I thought I was doing all this work myself and I knew I wanted to grow the company and get more people in, but I was kind of doing this work myself. Let’s say I’m 100% of my capacity. It felt weird to bring someone in and then do say 75% of that. And then I now only have 25%, which is going to happen with this free time. And I’m like, hold on, shouldn’t I be doing stuff? So, it was I left it too late. I think I would have hired someone if I could go back and do it again or find some way earlier on and realize, oh that, that free 75% that I would have got by saying, hiring someone and giving them the work would have helped immensely but in my head I was nervous. I’m familiar with SEO work, I can do that every day. I can do that inside out to do it. My eyes closed. But then the sales and the agency side are brand new to me, so I was a bit nervous about making that jump as well. I suppose that played a bit of a part in it as well. I suppose.

So you so basically you realized that you need to hire somebody else and that you were at scale and you brought them in to do more work. I am not sure if you have heard of Michael Gerber’s book E-Myth Revisited

Yeah.

Did you take that approach?

Well, I did it for a bit. And then I had like one of our clients who actually turned into a mentor. He owns a dental practice in Liverpool and they scaled it from a small practice up to like a multi-million-pound practice, massive dental practice in Liverpool. I helped him a bit with his SEO and because he’s had all this experience with running a business, he introduced me to that book. So, I read that book ages ago before it made sense to me prematurely. And then he was like, look, read it again as I’ve read it again, then that then kick in like the point of like, that I knew it’s going to not work, if you don’t do this. Don’t find someone to process, put everything in the processes, but give it to the person to get them to do.

Exactly.

You know.

It’s amazing how we have the tools now to be able to do things like that, like logic management platforms like click up or Asana or teamwork and the fact that you can create video tutorials for your staff.

The crazy thing.

You can even hire someone to create video tutorials. Like you, you can start doing it. Then you can hire an employee. You’re the SEO guy, and you keep the SOPs updated, you create the videos. And so that’s probably a smart way to do it.

Yeah, I fully agree. I think the key to running an agency or running a business that I always found is figuring out something for yourself. And then once you know it a bit, breaking that down, giving it to someone else to do it. Obviously, the dream would be to have enough capital just to hire someone better at it than you anyway. And of course, it’s kind of a learning process, but a lot of the time you have to do it and then make enough money from it to then hire someone.

Yeah. My business manager told me that you need to segment your day into 15-minute increments and every 15 minutes record what you’re doing and then from there, you can make a 40-hour workweek of what you need people to do based on that specific area of responsibility or role or whatever the case may be. So yeah, I think that’s it’s hard though, you know, like transitioning from being an SEO consultant to being a business owner who runs a business. I have greatly underestimated the amount of business acumen and business skills that it takes actually to run a business of SEO. And I would say that there are skills that one should develop, and I think that’s important. The point I’m trying to make is that it’s very important to focus on different business skills, such as finances, accounting, understanding of cash flow, a profit loss statement and so on. What was one of the number one lessons he taught you besides what we just talked about that you’d care to share with us?

Yeah, it introduced me to the book Profit First. And that was an eye-opening side of things because, personally, money management is something that I’ve had to learn to kind of get better at. So that automatically translates to your business. If you’re bad at your money management, you’re going to be bad at your business money management.

Money management. So that book helped massively in terms of especially just even just the one thing from that book is as in England where we have VAT, so you make a sale, and a chunk of that automatically goes to the government, but they don’t collect it until every three months or whatever, so you safely put it away and then the problem that I had at the start is that it was just all in this one account.

I made the same mistake.

So, I think that was the one biggest lesson was just seeing as it comes in in the bank that we use now, as soon as it comes in, it automatically goes into a different pot.

So, you have different accounts as he talks about having six different accounts. You’ve got that all setup.

Exactly. That has been the greatest thing because you kind of get towards the end of the quarter, and it’s like you have the right amount of money in your bank accounts. So yeah, I think I’d say that’s my biggest lesson, my friend.

My account one time told me how much money I made, and I’m like, well, where is it then?

Yeah, it’s true.

So how did that change the way you priced your services?

It’s a good question. I don’t think it did too much, in terms of the pricing of services it’s definitely something I feel we’re behind the curve on in terms of we should be charging more than we are at each stage if you know what I mean. So, what’s kind of changed us the most is we start updating our processes, we update, and we get better as an agency. We charge a bit more and that’s how we’ve approached it so far. So, I think that’s been the key thing in terms of how we’ve added to our pricing just as we’ve grown. Changing the pricing to reflect that because the agency that I first was working at was a lot more established. They’ve been around for ten years, and they were charging X amount per hour. But, like obviously, when you first become a freelancer, you can’t charge that amount, so it’s kind of you charge a certain amount and then as you then become a team with more access to more tools, access to more skills, charge more in this leg in the office, I think that then the bringing up with that.

And yeah, this piece of business is very curious to know if you agree with this or not. I have heard that you should figure out what your cost reaction is in regard to the implementation, what you’re trying to do or the hourly rate of the employee that it costs and how long it takes to do it. So, there’s that SEO campaign that takes 25 hours to execute and then that’s the amount of time I deploy and then I have to take an account for operations and I have to take account for profit, and I have to take account for paying out a shareholder. Because even though you’re a company, you want to be a shareholder, you have to take into account making money to go into marketing and so on and so forth. And I’ve heard the three X Rule like you always, three X what your internal costs are in order to account for paying out for sales and paying out for shareholders and paying for operations. So, the third pays for our operations, the third pays for marketing, and the third pays our shareholders and mixes your employees in there. But that’s part of the operation. It’s not easy to do that. You’ve got to know your damn numbers. Are there any tools that you use in that regard? Like, I know there are tools out there like cash flow.

We’ve been in the blueprint training so within that range to it.

Yeah, yeah.

And within his toolbox within that, there is a forecasting tool to put in not only for employee productivity and capacity but also for operating costs of the agency and then the client retainers that you’ve got and working out like that. So, I’ve just used that and then also just kept an eye on that profitability and just and kind of how much we are making and just keeping a close eye on that each month and each quarter.

There’s a cool tool I’d like to share with you. Just off the top of my head, it’s called TillerHQ.com. I hope it’s available now and what they do is they take your bank statements and they encrypt them. They’ve created an encrypted portal between your bank statements and their like, google Sheets is an amazing tool. Why do we need to invent something all the way from scratch, like Google sheets? Let’s just use Google sheets. They created an extension for Google Sheets and they have Personal Finance Google Sheets, like everything that we talked about. And they literally can pull in your transactions from various sources. You’re going to get PayPal, you are going to get your bank account, and so on and so forth. And you can use it for personal and business use. And we’ll give you all of those things

Nice, I’ll have to check that out.

It’s really inexpensive too. It’s like 59 USD a year.

Nice

The reason why is that they’re leveraging Google’s infrastructure and not having to spend all that money on creating software from scratch. I just thought I’d throw that out there.

Is good. I think a lot of that blueprint training stuff is heavily reliant on Google sheets as the basis and then they build their own. He partnered up with the guy who runs coding is for losers and he essentially is a whiz with Google sheets so they’ve created the whole system around that essentially which is good because like you said, it does all the heavy lifting. You don’t need to reinvent the wheel and it works well.

Absolutely. There’s a question I was going to ask you. How many employees do you have? Don’t mind me asking.

We have got six based in the UK and then a couple of sort of freelancers and gig economy people as and when we need them.

What are the keys to retaining employees? I think you found it to be successful. Yes.

Just the good ones. I think that’s been the hardest part. I think not only finding the right people but getting the most out of those people. For me, it opened my eyes that were two books and one of them was called Reinventing Organizations.

Oh, cool. I’m googling it right now.

Perfect. But essentially for that, he describes these organizations that are called teal organizations that he colors the organizations in red would be, say, your military organization. You know you don’t have a say unless you’re at the top, and then the levels go down. Whereas these teal organizations, which are these kinds of new organizations, and one he uses as the main example in there is Patagonia. There are a couple of others from different industries. But essentially, the aim is to have a purpose-driven organization where everyone has a say, people are involved, almost like an open-source company kind of thing. In some of the examples in there, the employees get to choose their salaries, which we have not implemented. The outlines of it and the way the company does it are that within the team, someone puts forward a request on why they think they should get the pay rise. The team decides essentially and kind of like on that basis. So, having read that and then the Patagonia book as well.

Patagonia, is it was always called.

I think it’s called Let My People Surf or Let My People Go Surfing by the CEO of Patagonia. That is a good circle, it’s a good book, and I think with that again, I think just trying to create a company that isn’t your stereotypical old school company of we don’t trust you to do the work, employees do the bare minimum, and then they clock off, and you know, that kind of vibe. It’s like you’re trying to create an environment that is trusting. A modern company, which is you see a lot of agencies now where it’s like you can work from anywhere, flexible with the holiday, flexible with time off and working schedule and stuff. So, I think that’s been from a company point of view, the key part and then I think from myself, is because we are a small team, I think me being very hands-on with the management and the involvement in helping those people progress, I think that’s been a key part. The first employee that I hired, a very stereotypical mistake in kind of high performance and they come in; they were gonna fix on what problems. It doesn’t happen. You know, they need to be managed, they need to be helped, supported and mentored. And that is, I think, something that I’ve tried to work with them on and just the show support it, that’s the key. To the people who have left over the last couple of years who didn’t stay for a year. I think some of them I didn’t support correctly, and some of them moved on to a new place for a new challenge. But again, it’s my fault for not figuring out what they wanted and whatever you to try and get them to that. So yeah, I think the key thing is just being, I know it’s the work environment, but being there for them is being open, it’s being caring, being a coach and friend, whatever they need to help them the healthy way and what he says in that reinventing organizations is that the old school method was where you put this mask on, you pretend everything’s okay, even if you have to have problems at home, for example. The stuff at home impacts your work. So I think that’s what I’ve tried to do a lot more.

Well, that’s awesome. I’m glad that you take that approach because I worked for people where it was old school and nobody cares what you’re going through, you’re here to make money. So, I don’t care what is happening in your personal life.

How do you maintain a healthy work-life balance, being the owner of the agency?

Yeah. I’ve become quite well-positioned to talk about this. When I first started the agency, I had a terrible work-life balance. I relied quite heavily on alcohol, and that side of things wasn’t great. I sort of went to go and see a therapist because I thought I had a work stress problem, but it was the stuff I was doing in the evenings and the weekends and drinking heavily, and that was impacting the work and stressing me out more. So, it got pretty bad, I think, and kind of a low. Now it’s nearly two years of not drinking alcohol and kind of have swapped it. Even now I pick up some habits in terms of like I might be, you know, now not drinking, I might eat some more junk food, or I might indulge in certain things. And it’s just, I think being more aware of what is happening in my life, if there’s stuff going on in my personal life, then it’s going to impact my work life as well. Work is stressful. Maybe not do too many weekend plans. Therapies helped massively, going to therapy helped me step back and kind of put a bit of a barrier between the stuff that’s going on and what’s happening. So yeah, it’s still a constant work-life balance thing. But I think for me, it is finding that issue and taking it out early.

Yeah, I have working hours and during my working hours, I do my work. But after working hours I won’t work at all. So, if I want to keep working, I’m going to be divorced. My wife is not high maintenance. She understands work is important. But there should be a balance, so we have dinner together, and then we spend an hour and a half together in the evenings together, that’s fine. I know when I have to put my phone away. I’ll turn it off and put it in the freezer or, you know, somewhere where I can’t get it. I don’t need to be addicted to my phone. Some people go so far as to have two phones, personal and office phones, to keep their lives separate. I can’t afford to do that personally. We pay astronomical prices here in Canada.

Same in UK

Yeah, it’s crazy for wireless, we pay astronomical prices.

A good point about the working hours. Since after getting a dog, it’s sort of like I’ll walk him for an hour in the morning, I walk for an hour in the evening, and that will be my start of the day. I walk him, and I’ll do my work day, then finish the day with that as well. It’s not where I sort of live. It’s like a nice kind of forest area outside of London, and it’s again the same thing. I’ll leave my phone in the car when I go to walk him, and then it’s nice just to switch it off for the day. So, I just jump for a jog.

No, I’m so glad you said. We have a family dog, and she’s older. She’s a grandma dog like 84 years old, so she doesn’t walk very much anymore. But I always enjoyed going for a walk with her. But one is there, I don’t want to impress upon you something that maybe may make you change your routine. But, you know, when we work from home, you learn, and I love learning. I’m just passionate about learning. That’s one of the things I love about digital marketing is always something learning a business. These books you’ve shared, they are going in my reading list, but I found that like, you know, some people like I got a guy, he’s going on a job, and it’s an hour and a half commute one way for him. For this job, he’s going on, and it’s a hands-on job, for lack of a better word, vocation, whatever. You know, it’s that kind of job, working with your hands like a trade. And some people have an hour to the office, an hour back or even half an hour. So, I found that they didn’t have that name and they talk about turning your car into a university. And when you’re working from home, I love it. I don’t drive anywhere. And it’s great. I save on gas, and I save on so many different things, but I found that I don’t have that learning time. So, when I go for walks, I throw my wireless headset on. Putting my phone on, listening to something. Listen to an audiobook while I’m walking Or because, again, I’m working, I’m just sharing some of my ideas, I guess. I’ll take the time again with the Bluetooth headset to call a friend to whom I want to connect with.

Yeah, that’s a good thing to do.

I’m still winding down, and I’m still separating work from personal, and I’m able to connect on a relationship with those I want to maintain. So anyway, just on that up there.

Yeah, nothing is a good shot because I think the key thing is that before I got the dog, I would read for an hour in the morning and then I would read for an hour in the evening. So now I’ve lost that a bit. So, I think that would be a nice way to go.

Audiobooks, my friend.

Yeah, exactly. Both of them together. Problem solved.

There you go. Now you can walk the dog, wind down and learn and listen.

Exactly.

Right on. You know what? It’s been an absolute pleasure talking to you. I could keep asking questions all day long. Thank you so much for being here. It’s been a pleasure having you on the show. I would love to have you back. If our listeners want to connect to the online, how can they do so?

Yeah, definitely. I think the best place to sort of follow along with what I’m up to from a business point of view is to follow me on LinkedIn. So, Stephen White Director of Spaced Digital.

Okay.

It’s a very common name, Stephen White. So, you have to transfer it to find the Blue Man.

Will make sure we put the link in the show notes.

Yeah.

Yeah, I got a common name as well. I went to the bank as I lost my bank card and I told them my name and they showed me all the people that were also named Matthew Fraser in Canada alone. So, I can understand. I wish I had a more unique name saying so, but I learned about this one guy, he’s optimizing the search for his name. He’s using his middle initial. His name is Joseph something, whatever. So, he’s branding himself as such because there are so many people who have the same name as him and somebody who’s famous because like there’s a Matt Fraser hockey player. So yeah, I’m going with that same idea

That sounds good. All right. I’m going to see that as well.

Yeah, might as well. Once again, thank you so much for coming to the show. It’s been a pleasure having you here.

Thanks very much for having me.