How to get Purpose-driven Marketing Right

Hello everyone, it’s Matt Fraser here with digital web solutions and this week’s episode of E-Coffee with experts. I’d like to introduce you to today’s special guest Crystal Pascal. Okay, Crystal Pascal. Crystal is the Marketing Director of AyoKay, a full-service web design and purpose-driven Marketing Agency in Indianapolis, Indiana. When not taking her two young boys to the museum or knitting a new sweater, Crystal enjoys reading, watching reality television, and bacon. She’s the co-author of 50 Shades of frayed- three moms talk about what happens when I do becomes not tonight, as well as a blogger at IndyWithKids.com. Crystal, thank you so much for being on the show today. Appreciate having you here.

Thanks so much for having me.

So tell me, how did that come about in your book?

Um, when 50 Shades of Grey was the big thing everybody was talking about and reading. A fellow Digital Marketer and writer, a friend of mine, reached out to me and said, “You know, it’s so funny all the hype about this book, but this isn’t what relationships are like”. And so we kind of decided to write our funny take on what intimacy and marriage and relationship conversations look like versus what you may read in a book or see in a movie. And it was a lot of fun.

Sounds interesting. I’ll probably have to read it. I love bacon. I’ll have a bacon sandwich, BLT sandwiches, etc.

Yeah, I grew up with a mom from the southern part of the United States. And Bacon is a staple there. And I didn’t know that other people don’t use bacon grease for cooking eggs in or on cheese sandwiches to fry them. I’m watching my cholesterol not eat as much bacon as I used.

Isn’t that amazing, though, saving the bacon fat and then using it for cooking stuff. Yeah, there’s butter or oil or whatever. Yeah, you’re going to use fat and some, but it makes things taste so much.

 It’s something that my mom and her family did. Money was scarce. But it’s also delicious.

So , where did you grow up? You said you grew up in the southern states?

 Well, my mom is from the south. I grew up here in Indiana, where I live now.

Okay, cool. All right. And so, what was your favorite subject in school growing up? Did you have one at all?

I was very much an English and reading kid. I always had my nose in a book. I would sometimes get in trouble at school for reading when I was supposed to be paying attention to whatever the lesson was. Oh, yeah. So I always loved reading, writing, and storytelling, which is the long and winding path I took to get into marketing.

How did you get started in this Digital Marketing Industry role? What was your first experience?

Yeah, that’s a great question. So um, when I was in college in the late 90s, and early 2000s, Digital Marketing, was just coming to be, and it was not even really a thing you could study at university yet. So I studied English because I liked to read and write. I had no idea what I wanted to do. I worked a lot of different jobs in my early 20s. But it wasn’t until I had my first child that I really kind of fell into Digital Marketing, almost accidentally. I had my first son in 2009 and started a mom blog because that’s what you did in 2009 if you had a little kid. And it was just a way to talk to people who were other adults because I was home with my son all day. But it turned out now that blog is long gone, and it wasn’t anything special. Still, it made me realise that I enjoyed writing online,.talking to people, and figuring out what resonated with people in that space. It sent me down a path from blogging for myself to freelancing as a copywriter for other people, businesses, and agencies, learning more about SEO and putting those skills to work in my freelancing career. And then in 2019, when I felt like I was ready to get back into the full-time workforce again, I started at Ayokay where I am now.

All right on. Indy with kids. I mentioned that in your bio. Can you tell me a little bit about that?

Sure. So Indy with kids, I can’t take any credit for Indy with kids. Indy with kids is the brainchild of a good friend named Katie Mann. So she was another mom blogger who I met on my logging and marketing journey. Our kids were the same age and we got along. She took the small website that she started and she has grown it into the go-to site in our city for anything and everything to do with kids and families. So she’s created a great brand and resource and I have been lucky to work for her in different capacities over the years. I ran her social media for a while. I’ve contributed articles to her and she is just one of my favorite people. And someone that I have learned a lot from on my marketing journey.

Right on. So it’s a resource to find things to do in Indianapolis area for families and children specifically?

Yeah.

Oh, that’s cool. That’s awesome. So in 2019, you got started with Ayokay. Do you know how it got the name?

That is a great question. Our founder and CEO, Jack Shepler, and Ayokay has been the name that he has used. He used it back in college when he had his first online portfolio, and it just kind of stuck and has stuck with our business. And now it’s who we are. And so it’s fun. We get a lot of questions about how you pronounce it; sometimes people don’t get the spelling quite right. But I love it, and I think it fits the character of our company because we take what we do very seriously. But we also like to have fun, and that reflects that.

So your agency or the agency that you work for, I noticed something right from the get-go of visiting the website’s homepage that you’re focused on doing purpose-driven marketing, if I’m correct. Correct me if I’m wrong. Can you tell me a little bit about that?

It has come about organically as we think about, you know, who we are as an agency and the types of brands and organizations we like to work with. All of us here are pretty community-minded. We care about where we live and making it better. And so it was just kind of a naturalist extension that we have enjoyed working with brands and organizations that work to make the world better in some way. Whether it’s a nonprofit organization, a public health organization, or even an E-commerce brand that might be focusing on health or wellness or happiness. We like to work with those clients. Because we just feel like that shared mission helps us do great work for them.

Are there any specific campaigns you have found, like examples that you could share that have successfully reached their goal or purpose?

One of my favorites is a campaign that we worked on with the Health Foundation of Greater Indianapolis. And the Health Foundation is an organization that does a lot of work in HIV prevention. And so we worked with them to create a website called prep daily.org. And PrEP, if you’re not familiar, is an HIV prevention medication. So, folks who are taking PrEP, it’s a little pill, folks taking PrEP have an almost zero chance of getting HIV. So it’s an important campaign that they wanted to get out there. And we kind of took that vision that they had of getting information about PrEP and helping folks get connected to PrEP and turned that into a website where we created the branding and created the content strategy. It’s designed to welcome folks in and answer any questions about PrEP or HIV in general. I’m very proud of the whole project, but where I was most involved is helping shape the content strategy. And so when we launched the site, it essentially had pretty much no traffic. And these days, it’s averaging over 20,000 page views a month. And most of that is coming from Google, because we were intentional about answering the questions people had about PrEP and HIV, even if maybe these subjects were a little taboo and uncomfortable for folks. What we’ve learned is people will ask Google the things that they are afraid to ask their doctor or ask a friend. And so how can we answer those questions? With good, accurate information and help folks get the resources they need. So I’m proud of that project. We still create content around that one, and we’re excited to see it continue to grow.

Would you say the success with that was finding the questions that people were asking and then answering those questions with quality, direct answers, and high-quality content, which grew the organic traffic to 20,000 pageviews a month from nothing? That’s pretty impressive. What’s your approach to starting an SEO campaign? Can you tell me a little about the steps you guys take or the process?

The first step is always learning for us. I’m digging in and learning as much as I can about the brand or organization we’re working with. Their goals, history, what worked for them in the past, and what hasn’t worked. Find out about any competitors or like-minded organizations in the space. And that’s the first step for me. I want to be able to see it through their eyes and learn what I don’t know. And I try to come into projects like that, without any assumptions. When we first sign on a client, we start working with them on an SEO campaign. Yeah, I’ll have a general idea of who they are. I’ve looked at their website, but I want to start that conversation by telling me what they’re about. So that I can learn directly from them who they are and what their goals are.

You mentioned that you took English in school because they didn’t have digital marketing. Do you think colleges and universities should offer digital marketing training?

 Yeah, that’s a great question. And on the one hand, I think, yes, because it’s just so necessary these days. It’s such a different world from when I was in college. When Mark Zuckerberg was building Facebook, I was in college, and it was just a brand new thing. And now it’s digital is such a huge component of any business’s marketing strategy. So, on the one hand, I think yes, I think what is tricky, though, is that digital marketing moves so fast, and things change so quickly. The folks who are teaching those classes, I think, really have to be doing their due diligence just to keep up with the changes. Because something that you were teaching a year ago, or even six months ago, may not be the case nowadays. It’s just trying to stay on top of all that.

Absolutely. And from what I hear, some universities and colleges are two years behind what they’re teaching regarding what’s happening in the market. So that is a challenge. So how do you stay on top of what’s happening in digital marketing and focus on helping you continue to be successful in your role?

 I read a lot. I listened to a lot of podcasts. I’m very fortunate that marketing is not only my job. It’s an interest and passion of mine. And so I like learning about what’s new and what’s changing. So I try to keep up on it in my own time, just checking in and seeing what’s new and hearing what is working for other people. And then also here at Ayokay, we’re really big about learning and growing. And so we do have lots of opportunities. If there’s something that we want to learn more about, we’re encouraged here to pursue those things, whether it’s, oh, I’d like to take this course about Google ads, or I’d like to learn more about content writing, or whatever it is. We’re encouraged to learn and grow our marketing interests and strengths here, which is great.

Awesome. Now, you had mentioned some books, the top three baby books that you would recommend someone to read who wanted to get started in digital marketing. What would have been the most influential book that has influenced you in digital marketing?

That is a great question. Two come to mind. I think the one that formed my thinking the most is Donald Miller’s-Building a story brand. The storytelling of our marketing element is so important that it becomes more and more challenging as our marketing channels become quicker and faster. But I still think the story is always so important. And then another one that is not directly a marketing book, but I recommend it to anybody that works in marketing. A book by James Clear called Atomic Habits. A lot of success in marketing, whether you’re trying to grow a career or build your own business, or you have your website that you want to grow, it’s just getting in the habit of showing up every day and doing the work. And so that book has been really helpful for me in learning how to manage my time better, both when I’m at work and home. And I just think that there are so many things happening in marketing, and it’s really easy to get distracted by the next new thing. And building some really strong habits can help you stay focused and, you know, stay the course.

Yeah. So how important is it? You mentioned the book story. I’ve read that book, by the way, by Donald Miller, it’s a phenomenal book, and I also read other books marketing made easy. What elements are involved in creating a story to tell for a client or for one wanting an initiative that you gleaned from reading that resource?

I think the biggest thing for me was that element that people need to be able to see themselves in your brand and your brand story and where they fit in. And that has paired well with a lot of our work. Ayokay is a purpose-driven, mission-driven organization. Many of the organizations we work with are trying to reach out to maybe marginalized people, groups who don’t see themselves represented a lot, or maybe they don’t have a lot of trust built up. Like, like I mentioned, working in HIV V prevention, there are a lot of folks that for whatever reason, don’t have a lot of trust in healthcare systems. Maybe they haven’t been treated well in the past because of their race or income level. And so we’re working to build trust for those folks so that they can reach the people they need to reach with the services that are going to help them. And so what I’m always looking for is how can I make sure that people see themselves in this? How can people look at this campaign, look at this website, read this copy and know this information is meant for me. And so that is probably the biggest part of the story brand that I have carried into my marketing work.

Oh, that’s awesome. And you mentioned some podcasts that you listen to. Could you share the podcasts that you’re listening to right now?

 Sure. I’m going to cheat.

Marketing. That’s okay.

Yeah, so, um, I will say that I listened to a lot of folks who are maybe non-traditional, and I guess it’s because I came up doing my own thing before I worked for an agency. So I listen to books like listening to folks who are doing affiliate marketing work, folks like Doug Huntington. I like Nick Loper’s side hustle show. Some things like that, because I think those are kind of the new and cutting edge things that are happening, people who are out of out there on their own figuring it out for themselves. Those are some of my favorite podcasts to listen to from a marketing perspective.

Oh that’s awesome. Here’s a question. So what do you like the most about digital marketing in the work that you do?

Yeah, there are a couple of things. First of all, I like connecting with people. I like the folks I work with here, Ayokay, and my coworkers; I like connecting with our clients and helping them meet their goals. So the people are always a big part of it for me. Um, The other thing that I enjoy is that I’ve always loved puzzles. I’ve always loved crossword puzzles and jigsaw puzzles. I like figuring things out. And to me, digital marketing is like a big puzzle. And every puzzle is different because every client is different. And while we do have best practices, there are no two clients that need the same thing or the same recommendation will work. So I like the work of solving the puzzle, figuring out what’s going to work for clients for their specific situation to meet their specific goals.

Okay, that’s awesome. So the variety of the work and figuring out what’s going to work and what’s possibly not going to work. What do you like least about it?

 Um, that’s a great question. There’s not much that I Don’t like. I guess that, for me working in an agency with a lot of clients, I just have to be able to move fast and move quickly and keep up and keep a lot of plates in the air. And sometimes that can be stressful, it can be hard knowing I’ve got all these different clients that have different things going on, and I need to stay on top of them. But usually, when I’m starting to feel stressed in that way, it’s time for me to take a step back and evaluate. Either I’m not delegating something to a team member, or I need to improve my process. Excuse me. So I’ve learned over time that when I’m feeling those moments of stress, or like, oh, a lot is going on, I don’t know, if I’m on top of it all, it’s a chance to just really reevaluate and see where I can get better.

Okay. How does your agency or how do you measure the success of the strategies you’re implementing for clients?

It all revolves around what those clients’ goals are. If we have an E-commerce client, we can get them, a million page views a month, but if they aren’t selling anything, they’re not going to be happy. Whereas a different client who maybe has an informational website, million pageviews a month is exactly what they want. So at the end of the day, it’s great to have statistics and look at like, Oh, we’ve helped them create this much growth, or do this, that, or the other. But if we’re not meeting their goals, if we’re not helping them achieve what matters to them, then we haven’t done our job. So it’s always different based on what the client’s needs are.

Are there any specific tools you used to communicate those things to clients?

I think a big one is our discovery process as I talked about earlier. That initial learning process that we do with clients, where we’re talking very deeply about their goals, and what matters to them, and then just keeping the communication going forward. I have a regularly scheduled check-in with every client, so we’re always talking on maybe the second and fourth Tuesday of the month. They know I’m going to be checking in. I will be reporting back on those metrics that matter to them. I’m going to be hearing their concerns and talking about new ideas. So, it’s all about listening very well and then communicating regularly and touching base regularly.

All right on. What is, in your opinion, in your experience, one of the biggest challenges in today’s market for digital marketing.

I think that one of the biggest challenges is that sometimes it can be challenging to manage expectations. There are a lot of folks out there that will tell people that are looking for marketing help, we can get you this result in this amount of time. And that can sometimes lead people to think, Oh, well, I should be able to expect this after two months, I should be able to expect this much-increased revenue because of this marketing campaign. And so one of the challenges of the job, and one of the reasons again, that communication is so important, is we always want to set realistic expectations for our clients, the people we’re working with. If you are looking to grow, if you’re looking to double your website traffic, it’s and you’re using strictly content in SEO, it’s not going to happen after your first month of you know, posting a blog, it’s, it’s going to take time. And so we always try to be realistic with folks about those types of expectations. And then that’s also a lot of making sure that our recommendations fit what the client is looking for. If you need to get website traffic, fast, SEO may not be the best move for you. So if you’re looking to drive leads, a general social media campaign may not be the best. So it’s figuring out what that goal is and making the right recommendation so that we are managing expectations for folks.

Okay. So if the client came to you and wanted to get instant traffic, what would you recommend for them?

Probably, advertising is generally the way if you’re just looking to drive traffic quickly. You can turn that on, and then just let it run and make adjustments as you need to but that’s a more guaranteed way to get traffic. The challenging thing, though, is that there’s a cost associated with that, you’re paying someone to manage those campaigns and then you’re also paying the ad spend. And it’s tricky because, the problem with ads is when you turn off those ads, you turn off that flow of traffic as well. So that would be a recommendation that I might make. But I would want to put those caveats in place to, yeah, what you need to know about this. The example of advertising ads is great. But they are, we generally recommend them as a part of a greater overall marketing strategy. It’s there’s no one that we would say you should just run ads, we want to make sure that we’re looking at all areas, and how can you run ads when you need to, or when it makes sense, but then also support ads with other areas of marketing.

I guess, when you’re saying ads, I mean, like Google ads and Facebook ads? Is there a way you decide or would recommend a client and split up their marketing budget to have an overall strategy, a certain percentage of their marketing budget towards a certain channel or strategy?

That’s a tricky one. And again, a lot of times it comes down to the goals of that specific client. So we’ll look at what their budget allows and what their goals are. And what we think the best investment is. I always try to come at it from the perspective of; if I were you if this were my business, here’s how I would lay this out. It can be tricky, sometimes we work with several nonprofits. And so sometimes they’re working on a budget or they’ve got grant funding, so they can only use that funding in specific ways. So sometimes we have to get a little creative. But we are always trying to make the best recommendation for the client, even if maybe it’s not the one that they initially came to us asking about, there may be somebody coming to us who thinks, oh, what I need to do is run Google ads. And that’s what I need to do with this budget that I have. But if we take a look at it, we think we could do that for you, but may be investing them in content would be a better spend of your money. We’re going to make that recommendation because we want to be very honest and recommend that we would choose ourselves if we were in that position.

How have you seen digital marketing change over the years from when you first started in 2009?

 I think two things have happened over that time. After almost 13 years of doing this, a big one is just the boom of social media and how it’s changed the game. Just as the channels themselves have changed, and how new channels have come on the scene, other ones have faded away. That’s just an ever-changing landscape that I think marketers just have to continue paying attention to and trying their best to be on top of another change. On the other side of things, we’re seeing Google and its algorithms continue to get smarter and smarter as far as how they evaluate and write content. And there was a time when you could stuff many keywords into a blog post and get it to rank number one on google that has changed. But we still sometimes run into clients who have been advised that’s the best strategy. So I think that as marketing is changing, it’s all about just making sure you’re serving that end-user well, rather than trying to trick an algorithm or use a tactic designed to fool a platform into driving more traffic.

So what would you say then would be the best strategies or the best means of implementation of SEO today, instead of 10 years ago?

 A lot of people have opinions on this. I think it’s just at the end of the day, of course, there are some best practices that we want to follow regarding writing content. Make sure your title tags are right in your meta description and follow best practices. But out of that, it’s just, I think, writing good complete content that answers people’s questions that serve the purpose it’s supposed to. Google is trying to be useful to that person that’s Googling and that should be our goal as marketers as well. If you’re trying to drive SEO traffic, try to be useful to that person searching for that content.

No, I agree with you. Creating high-quality content is always the key. Creating content for what people are searching for, relevancy, and creating that high-quality content answers those questions. What qualities do you think are required to be effective in the role of digital marketing director or digital marketer?

Great question. I think you need to be a great listener. A great communicator. You have to be willing to follow data and do what the data tells you to do but at the same time not be afraid to get a little creative. It’s such a clean shaved phrase to say think outside the box and sometimes that is what it takes. Here at Ayokay, we are always making data-driven decisions. Still, at the same time, we are sometimes getting creative in the ways that we are reaching out to people crafting messages or finding new information to write about for a blog topic. So that flexibility I think, is very important.

Are there specific tools you use to look at data?

Yes. we have some tools that we use. And I will say this, and I don’t get, especially on the SEO side. I don’t get into too many discussions of should I use Semrush or I should use Ahrefs or should I use Serpstat? I think that they are all valid. I tell people it is like the weather report, they all get pretty close. You may have your favourite weatherman that you like to watch, but we use tools like Semrush, Ahrefs, and SEO PowerSuite. We try not to lean too much on the tool but use a variety, put everything together, and then analyze and see from all our different sources to see what we are looking at and see our next step based on what we are seeing.

What do you think is the next major trend in digital marketing?

 I guess I should confess. I was a late adapter to Tik Tok. I said this is not for me, but I have kids and I had to keep an eye on what they were up to. I won’t necessarily say Tik Tok in general. Still, the popularity of Tik Tok is indicative of an overall trend that I am seeing, where people are looking for more authentic content and less polished content. When folks are scrolling Social media feeds, I think these days they are looking for, quote, and quote real pictures versus a stock photo. If you are jumping on an Instagram live to talk about your brand, it doesn’t need to be polished. It can be very walking and talking and this is just very off the cuff of my phone. And I think that resonates with people. We have become very savvy as a population about when we are being marketed to, and so I think trying to create moments of authenticity is the best marketing tool these days.

That’s awesome. on that note what mistakes should people try to avoid when implementing Digital Marketing?

I think it is really important to think about the why behind everything you are doing. Whether it’s for your brand or a client. It should never be because this is how we have always done it or what everybody else is doing. Your Why needs to come from a bigger place I think this will achieve these results and the result that I want. you won’t always get it right. Marketing is data-backed, but a lot of it is just luck. Sometimes there are things that you think will take off that won’t. And we have all seen a social media post that goes viral and we think; of all the things, this is the one that we pull off. You have to understand the reasoning behind what you are doing beyond just focusing on what everybody else is doing and this is what you are supposed to do on social media. there needs to be a bigger explanation behind it. This is the story I want to tell. This is how I want to help people. This is the service I want to provide. and that is why I am making this choice, sharing this blog or having this tone on my social media.

Do you think there are different pieces of content that people need to create, eg. turning a blog post into a video or even an audio recording, in your experience?

I think that repurposing content is awesome. I was thinking even here at Ayokay of taking our content and repurposing it. That is great too; creating a blog for a series is a great thing, and I think everybody should do it. You can extend the life of that blog by making a video around it, maybe taking it and breaking it up into a smaller social post. Make short graphics of quotes that you can share on social media. The possibilities are endless. And I think that content repurposing is something that we don’t talk enough about in marketing but it is absolutely a great idea.

If someone was just starting in marketing today and someone came to you and said they wanted to get started digital marketing. What instructions would you give them?

Honestly, the instruction I would give is not to discount education, college, or courses, but build your own thing. Take something you are interested in and build a website around it or build a social media channel. everything I have learned about SEO I learned from my projects first. I am pretty much self-taught from my successes and failures on my projects. but that has given me a lot of valuable information that I can use in my career. Suppose you are looking to get into digital marketing and I think that’s the great thing about digital marketing. In that case, I think that education is super important, but I also think that it is very easy to build your own thing and prove yourself in digital marketing. Suppose you can show that you can drive traffic, social media followers, or drive sales. Then somebody will hire you to do that and they may not care if you don’t have a degree. If you have results on your side, you can be an asset to a brand or agency doing that same thing.

You mentioned some projects that you have worked on. What has been your biggest success that you can share with us?

Some of the biggest successes and where I have learned the most lesson is, that I have a website that I created a few years ago. It is an all-around children’s book. It is a recommended book list around a particular topic. Ten books to read if your pet dies. It started as a hobby project. It is something I was able to grow through working on it over several years. And now it creates a nice side income for me through affiliate marketing and ads. But more than anything, it is my place to experiment. It’s my place to try new things and grow new things. So I am proud of it. And there are a few other websites that I have floating out there. They don’t get a lot of attention these days because I am busy with other things and see what I can get to work.

Are you willing to share that s people want to visit your site?

Sure. My website is called feminist books for kids; all the books are for university. My main focus and its feministbooksforkids.com. so go check it out.

You have developed a reading list of books for children based on suggestions and you have learned, and getting traffic and getting sighting and developing. So you would say that someone should start a site. That is a pretty neat idea, to be Frank. To start a site that just recommends a book to people. Like a book review site. and book suggestion site. so if people were thinking about ideas, they are right there. Many people have trouble coming up with ideas of what the heck I pick. How do I get started? What do I write about? what do I create a site about? These entrepreneurs in college come up with too many. found that.

I own about six URLs and just thought I would build a site around this one day. The book site advice I give folks when they want to start a site Is; what is something somebody asks you about all the time? Before I had kids I spent some time teaching preschool for a while. Many parents would say; this happens at home; can you recommend a book? We are having a new baby, can you recommend a book? as I mentioned earlier, I love to read, I love books and it just grew from that. Some folks will tell you to choose the most marketable Niche or make the most from an affiliate. I say follow your interest. Follow what interests you. Follow what you enjoy. You will have the most authentic voice when you write about what you care about. it doesn’t have to be a website. if you are into gardening and want to play around with Tik Tok, start a Tik Tok channel about gardening. to see where it takes you to see what you learn from it. Writing was the choice for me. Somebody else may have a different thing. I think that just playing around, doing what you like, and seeing what you learn from it. You may surprise yourself.

So, Crystal if people want to learn more about you where would they go?

 Feel free to look me up on LinkedIn. my stuff is all there. My Instagramis chrystal.Paschel. And as I mentioned before my book website is feministbooksforkids.com

hey crystal, I want to thank you for being on the show. I enjoyed talking to you. It’s great learning about you and thanks very much.

Thank you

You have a great day.