Crafting Quality and Reputation: Secrets to Growing a Brand in a Competitive Market

Hello again, everyone. This is Victor from Digital Web Solutions here with E-Coffee with Experts. And today, since I was a little more hungrier than usual, I’m bringing here not only a designer, but a craftsman who has worked with kitchens for more than 20 years. Al Bruce from Olive and Barr, thank you so much for being here. How are you doing?

Very good, thank you.

Amazing. I think whenever, at least back in Brazil, whenever we have conversations with anybody that usually works with kitchen or travel or pets, we ask if this is like a childhood dream of theirs. Oh, I wanted to be a vet when I was a kid. Oh, I wanted to be. I wanted to work in restaurants ever since I was a kid. I wanted to travel ever since. Is this the same applied here to you? Was this something that you always liked in terms of designing yourself? And by designing, of course, when kids. I mean drawing sticky men with houses or. No. Was it something else?

I mean, dreams. Dreams are funny word to use for it. It’s not something that I’ve always just done it. I’ve always just designed. I’ve always just made things. Interiors has always been a big part of my life, you know, so rooms, the things that are in rooms, decorating rooms, you know. So, yeah, it’s just been something that’s just been natural to me all the way through. So it’s just been a progression of.

That, you know, I see. And then when talking about Olive and Barr specifically, I noticed that you started the company 2018. Is that correct?

That’s right, yeah.

What was the inspiration at the time? And if you can tell us afterwards about what Covid changed in your scenario, that would be very, you know, interesting for the audience to understand.

Okay. Why did I start a living bar, really? I’ve been working in kitchens, and I’ve been working in the handmade kitchen industry for a long time. I was with a previous company working, and I rose up to director level in that, and it was. It was just time to start my own thing.

Okay.

I could see the gap in the market. I could see how I wanted to do things differently to how I’ve been working before. I could see the changes that the nature of the whole market was needing those changes. And, yeah, that was the reason for starting Olive and Barr.

Okay. Awesome. Ever since you started. Yep, a lot of things have changed. And as I said, Covid probably changed a lot of things. So whenever we talk about the services required in 2020, 2021, during that era, a lot of people would stretch their noses if anybody said that hiring a designer or a contractor or a builder would be a priority when facing the issues and problems from all over the world. So I ask you this. Whenever Covid was around, was the lead generation part of your company? Was the inbounds of your company lesser than before? Or did you see, as so many other companies did, another way around the issue and managed to grow exponentially with the customers?

It was a tough one. We were. We’d been. We’ve been working for a little over a year when Covid kicked. Yeah. First lockdown came. The first lockdown over here was very strict. So basically all work had to stop. That was that. So the company did go dormant. We did really go in ourselves, sit there and just wait it out. As we came out the other side, I think we had 35 kitchens to deliver. Okay. Can deposits for and done designs for previous to the lockdown. So suddenly what that meant is we had to deliver a lot as quickly as we possibly could.

Yeah.

So the first thing was basically setting the customer’s expectations and getting stuff out in the right order, in the right manner, in the right time frame. Being in lockdown for as long as we were wasn’t cheap because you still have to pay everybody, etc. No works being done.

So.

So by the time we did come out of it, we were fairly financially. We were in difficulties financially. But what happened was, as a result, now looking back, as a result of everybody else sitting at home, sitting around their houses and seeing, you know, quite just not being happy with their surroundings and wanting to change stuff.

I went through it.

Yeah. The amount of leads that came through, straight out the back of it for the next year. We were so busy, it was ridiculous. The industry was incredibly busy as a whole, but so we were taking on new clients as fast as possible, you know, so great. It worked out well. It worked out well. It’s. The thing was always setting the expectations with all the customers. This is how long everything’s going to take. Timelines had stretched and then they stretched even further as builders were harder to get hold of, et cetera, et cetera. And then obviously we had a huge drought in appliances. Glass, actually windows were one of the things that were holding up loads of jobs.

That was actually.

Yes.

Another issue I remember with cars. It was an issue as well for the. For the glass of cars.

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah. So when they said they would be ready for us to come and fit the kitchen, so much of the time they weren’t. Funny thing is that that’s a legacy that seems to have lasted. The markets changed Radically.

Okay.

Before and afterwards. And a lot of things haven’t caught up and never will. So a lot of things have changed. Prior to Covid, I don’t think we’d ever done a zoom meeting with a client. Now every client has a zoom meeting. They don’t necessarily start there, but at some point in their journey, there’ll be a zoom meeting with them. Every single one. So there’s a massive change there. We had huge shortages of appliances as we came out. So we decided actually normally we would service kitchen from top to bottom. So we’d do all the cabinetry, the worktops, and all the appliances, as well as the installation process. We had to pull out the appliances and say to customers, look, you’re going to have to source your own. Because we kept getting promises, you know, yes, these ovens are going to be in the country at this particular time. You can sell them for that. We would sell them. Then we get let down and then in turn let those customers down, which was a bad look for us as a business, you know, especially one that we.

It’s beginning, Right? Especially yours, which was at the beginning, like 2019. 2020 was the third year of the company.

Yeah.

Yeah, I see. And then, as you said, you had a lot of. At the end of it all, you managed to find several leads. Once they were tired of their environment, they wanted to change. I for myself. I did this back in Brazil. I was living in an up department. I hired a company that would build all the woodwork, right? And I remember them asking me my favorite color, my favorite thing as a kid, and my favorite team. And I had them all of this. So that on the other day, I received the presentation, a mockup of the apartment with orange as the main color of the apartment, because I love orange, with Pokemon as a wallpaper in the living room, because I said I like Pokemon and Barcelona’s colors in my bed. So I remember doing this, feeling in love with the situation. I signed the contract only to have it being canceled, I think a week later, because my salary got cut in half. I couldn’t afford it anymore. And then I had to pay 30% of the entire contract as a fee, a cancelation fee.

Really?

Yes, yes, it was. It was really painful. It was really painful. But then now I have this internal feeling of having myself a really nice design kitchen, you know, to make up for the last time that I had in the past. So, yeah, anybody who’s watching this as well wants a new kitchen. You know who to talk with now, Al, besides Covid, every Company that I talk to over here has been through some struggles at the past, especially in the beginning, but I do understand, if you let me, if you tell me that Covid was that big struggle. However, I would ask you, in terms of digital, as you just said before, you didn’t have Zoom. Now you do. But then in marketing terms, marketing efforts paid in organic, SEO and ads. How have you driven this car around for so long?

The start of all of it digitally was Instagram. Yeah, makes sense for 70% of our customers came from Instagram. At the beginning of the business, pre Covid. During COVID you know, it was 70% of our business. That’s dropped a lot. We find social media hasn’t got the traction that it used to have for us. We still, we still do it, we’re still very into it, we still post up lots of lovely stuff, but it’s no longer 70%. So when I look now, I’m seeing that we’re obviously nearly seven years old now. We delivered nearly a thousand kitchens in total. I’m looking around 40. Thank you. 40% of our business comes from word of mouth.

That’s fantastic.

Kicking in within the last year. So you just start to feel it. I mean, a kitchen, our kitchen is guaranteed for 15 years. It’s a purchase that we expect people to keep for a minimum. It’s going to take a long time, but it’s the neighbors, it’s the friends, it’s the family. Those leads are really coming through second fast now.

40% of word of mouth, that’s amazing. That’s super. That’s a privilege that you have that a lot of companies don’t, right? Being so famous across your customers. And it’s all about customer loyalty and experience. So do tell us more about it. How do you make sure that it’s not only about the product you deliver, but the experience, the journey that they come through?

I think it starts with the product. The point is that we do have an exceptionally good quality product and that’s what we sell on in the first place. We talk about price because our prices are good, but we’re much keen on just saying, look, you’re coming here to get a really, really good quality kitchen. It will cost you less. They do that work for themselves. They can see that on the website and the processing structures and everything. But that’s where it all starts. I think the thing it changes as the customer’s journey is from a designer’s point of view, the designer has to listen to the customer, listen to their wants, listen to their needs and then impart their own wisdom onto that, you know, so they’re kitchen designers, they do know best, but they have to hear what the client actually wants, you know, so it’s getting that fine balance, right? Often clients will come to us. I mean, you’re often 12 months before they even need a kitchen because, oh, yes, have an extension done. They book that extension with the builders. Planning permissions come through all of this kind of stuff, or often hasn’t come through.

What they think about when they’re lying in bed at night, when they’re thinking about the extension is the kitchen. So they’re thinking of that end result. So that’s the bit that gets them excited. It’s not the bricks and mortar going up for sure. So they’ll come to us really, really early. So it’s a journey for them. So it’s being really attentive through that journey. What I always say is, every customer needs to feel like they’re the only customer. You know, they’re not one of the lead bank. They need to feel like they’re the only one. So from the designer’s point of view at the beginning, to get that design right and get that signed off and sent through to the workshops, at that point, the operations team take over. So the operations team, you often find at that stage of anybody having a job done, the builders are now in. Sometimes they’re living upstairs with a temporary kitchen in a bathroom or something like this, you know, sometimes they’re not in the house yet, but the project is. It goes from all these hopes and dreams and thoughts for the customer into a world of chaos.

Money, bills, stress, things being delivered late, et cetera, et cetera. So that’s happening all the time that we’re then producing the kitchen. So we say we’re the last people in the house. Everything else is done. The walls are done, the floors are done, everything else. All we want in after us is a painter just to come and touch up the walls afterwards. And that’s it, it’s done, you know, so by the time we do get there, this lovely dream that a lot of customers have been having all the way through has turned into quite often a very, very stressful time. So it’s really important that we talk to them all the way through that, and we’re reassuring them all the way through that that everything’s going to be good. We’re sending surveyors, everything’s going to fit the operations department every week from 12 weeks out, every week, they’re talking to those customers before delivering that kitchen.

Okay.

And then when we do deliver it, a big face of the company at the very end is our installers. So it’s really important that those guys are really, really good. Talk through with the customer what’s happening as the installation is going. We often need to win a client over at that stage and say, look, we’re not like the guys who fitted your windows who were late and disorderly. We’re not like the guys who did your flooring. We’re here professionally and we’re going to make this all good for you. So nice. It’s, it’s the journey, it’s the experience all the way through. And that’s of course what gives us our reputation and gives us our repeat business.

Wow, that’s amazing. That’s actually, I don’t have any words to comment because you actually explained it so good. I can just congratulate you over on achieving this, which is something that we know a lot of people struggle with. Right. That’s why we have so many agencies out there outsourcing support,outsourcing customer experience. Because not everybody can do this, especially when we’re talking about high end products like yourself. But once we talk about, as you mentioned, several different processes internally between signing a contract and delivering the products, we are also talking about a lot of things that can go wrong. And ever since what, two years ago, there’s this little thing buzzing around the market, something like AI, that’s helping a lot of people. Right. So what about Olive and Barr? Did you find any suitable use cases for AIs? Are you using it for the customer experience or support anything else entirely different or. No. Is this a 100% human touched company operation?

We’ve got to be really personable and very personal. So AI doesn’t figure in that when we’re talking to the customers, there’s no getting around it. You have to be friends, you have to, you have to have a really good relationship with them. So it doesn’t help them that at all. Where AI is kind of a loose term. But the design software that we use initially to present those kitchens to the customer, it’s gone, come on leaps and bounds. Even in the. The six, seven years of the lifestyle of olive bar, the lifespan of olive bar. So we do have a, we’ve got a catalog made up within our design package of cabinetry. And the designers very quickly and very easily can design a kitchen within people’s spaces and present it and it looks fantastic. So I think that that side, yes, that’s helping a lot. That’s been a great, great help for us.

Great. Awesome. While we are talking about customer experiences, I was going to ask this later on, but do you have any favorite stories you like to share that can be shared? Of course. I don’t know, maybe something that was going wrong then went right at the end or anything special.

It’s funny that, I mean, they’re kind of, they’re all special. We’re the Company, we have 18, 19 employees at the moment, other than anyone subcontracted. But what we do is we all have WhatsApp groups. So at the end of every job and during every job within those WhatsApp groups, we get lots of pictures, we get lots of customer feedback, the whole company as a whole. So we all share and it’s really important that we share. And this will be anywhere between three and five jobs a week. So. So they’re all important to us, really. There’s a few that stand out that, you know, have been around for a long time and I still really proud that we did those kitchens and they still keep cropping up. There’s one, there’s a Instagram account called country the Country House Diaries.

I will check it out.

Yeah, they are up in, just by the Lake District, a very beautiful part of the uk. These two guys bought this house and it was a huge manor house, completely run down, needed massive renovation. They didn’t have enough money to do it. And it was a massive dream of theirs. They prepared the room. When I say the room, it’s huge, this place. So they prepared that room themselves. I remember the night before we were delivering the kitchen, they were literally on their hands and knees laying parquet flooring which they had never done in their lives. And they did a fantastic job of it.

Nice.

So they got the whole thing prepared. We came in and we fitted this kitchen and it’s a show stopping kitchen. We’ve used it for a lot of promotional stuff. It’s an incredible kitchen. The island itself is nearly 5 meters long. So it’s a huge island, sits about 12 people down there. Wow.

Amazing. I’ll definitely check it out. Yes.

Yeah. Now what they’ve done is they. Now I say Airbnb this property out and it’s really popular. It sleeps 18 people, I think. Lots of bedrooms, huge, huge place. You know, beautiful Jacuzzis in the garden and all of this. But their renovations have been really sympathetic to the period of the property as well. So everything looks fantastic. They’ve got brilliant taste, really, really good. As a consequence, what happens is because so many people go and stay there. It crops up the whole time. So I see this kitchen presented by different people on social medias because they’ve had such a wonderful time staying a weekend at this place.

It’s her Mona Lisa, basically. It’s her Mona Lisa. She’s your best painting and everybody’s taking pictures of it.

This is it. That’s it. Yeah, yeah. And everybody’s enjoying it. That’s the thing. And you know that if you’ve got 12 people all getting together in an Airbnb, be it a large family or a group of friends, you know they’re gonna have a good time. So that kitchen would have seen some parties over. I think we’re about four years now.

It has been on some parties. Yes, yes, yes. They’re for sure. These big houses, they usually attract a lot of young groups wanting to party and, you know, all the rest. Awesome. Amazing. I would actually ask you any effective strategies to get new customers, but you’ve already told us a lot of them, especially the experience, the loyalty, the word of mouth. So, again, we are indeed talking to someone here, in this case you, who I’m not going to say has everything sorted, but who have really dominated the market that you have. Right. And by dominating, I don’t mean being a monopoly here. No, you actually took a demand and you managed to walk through this demand and keep them coming later for more kitchens and kitchens. Right. But then once we’re talking about scaling things up, which is what every company likes to do, we eventually need, in your case, help with production, supply chain and challenges come with this as well. Do you mind sharing a little bit more about specifically this supply chain and production side of things?

I think the thing is, when the company as it’s become more and more popular and the brands become more and more popular, selling the kitchens can be the easy part and it can be very tempting to oversell. There’s a harsh lesson to learn in overselling. Cash flow doesn’t improve necessarily at all. You’re taking too much, you know, you get the dollar signs in your eyes and you go for the money, but it’s not. It’s not the best way at all. You have to do things incrementally, step by step, you know, so. And it took. I needed to get in some experts in fields that I have no clue about, the whole financial side, in order to learn lessons like that, you know, when suddenly you’re like, hold on, why? Why have we got a hole here when we’ve been selling so much here? Et Cetera, et cetera. And it takes clever, cleverer people in that area than me to be able to give me. Yeah, yeah. So with production, we’ve been quite lucky over the last few years because as we’ve grown, there have been quite a few companies within this industry that their sales haven’t been so good.

The industry as a whole hasn’t necessarily been so good of late. You know, so when you go to the big events, you’re hearing a lot of people saying that they’re down year on year. Well, we’re going up year on year as a consequence. It does mean that there is labor out there. The hardest thing is labor. But it means that as certain companies, maybe there’s one company in particular, they’ve moved a lot of their business abroad.

Okay.

Seen the difficulties in the uk. What that’s meant is that installers who’ve worked for them for 20 years, they are now available and they’re out on the marketplace and we’re able to pick those guys up.

Oh, that’s awesome.

Really, really good installers who’ve been doing this for a long, long time. And they’re happy to get the work. So they’re immediately joining in with us, you know, and it’s working well. That’s been a big advantage. Just been a big advantage. The manufacturing of the kitchens, we just scale up as we do. We’ve got really good teams in the workshops. So it’s never, we’ve never found any pinch points there. It’s never been, it’s never been the difficulty of the business.

That’s great.

We can make good quality English cabinet cupboards. Well. And we just continue to do so. So. Yeah.

And now I imagine that a lot of people from overseas want your kitchens. Right. I’m not sure if the United States might be a market who’s very interested in you. Maybe France, around here, some of the countries in Europe. But you don’t sell overseas, you don’t ship your kitchens. Correct.

No. That’s not even at the weekend. Actually, I was in Majorca at the weekend and I was checking out a showroom over there. So I think we’re probably in Solaire in Mallorca. Watch this space. But that’ll be the next showroom we’ll open.

Amazing.

So we know that there’s a good market in Majorca. There’s a lot of property, a lot of the houses our kitchens would be so appropriate in. You know, they would look so good in. There’s a lot of high end development on that island. A huge amount okay, so we’re going to travel out there now. I’ve been working on a New York project for the last year now. Actually, it’s been longer. And we do want to open and we there mark Brooklyn as a showroom. So we do want to open over in New York at the moment. There’s several challenges. One, it’s very expensive. Yeah. I imagine everything times at least 5 of what we would pay over here.

Wow.

At least five. And that means wages, that means rents, a whole lot. Shipping is actually relatively cheap. It’s the same price to ship a kitchen to Scotland as it is to ship a kitchen to New York.

Okay. Yeah. Ironically. Yes.

And at the moment the import taxes are very favorable. But as everybody knows, there’s been a big political change in the States recently and we don’t know where that’s going to take those import taxes and that’s crucial to us actually starting over there. So at the moment we’re putting things on hold for a while till that political climate sorts out. We just see where, where it’s going to end up. If it ever does.

If it ever does. Yes.

Yeah. So. So that’s where we are. There’s also another point to it. I know that to do New York and to actually start it, that would be a full time role for me for at least a year, probably 18 months. Not able to have any time to look at the business back here. And we just don’t feel, when I talk to, you know, like, like peers in the business when I’m talking to people. We just don’t feel we’re ready for me to step back to that level at the moment. So. But it will happen.

Yeah. In my last episode I was talking to Beau. He’s a co founder of Sunday scaries. It’s a CBD gummy bear. So they sell in the U.S. gummy bears for all over the U.S. right. And I actually had kind of similar conversations with him regarding the election. Not in a political way at all, but to understand what he was expecting because he sells CBDs and THC gummy bears. So we’re talking about drugs, which we know that are not accepted by religious groups, by some cultures and everything else. So it always, it’s always, how can I say, not nice how everything evolves around politics. But here we are, we didn’t even mention a thing about it. And we still have more politics keeping you or at least exactly holding you from the U.S. outside of the U.S. even in Europe, here, around France or Spain. Any, any ideas, any desires to be around.

I think Majorca will be a stepping stone if people want a kitchen in Spain. We’re traveling through Spain mainly to get to Majorca anyway, so that’s easy. Yeah, we’ve delivering a kitchen over to Holland in the next couple of weeks.

Okay.

A lot of kitchens in Jersey. There’s a big market in Jersey, so I think we’ve done seven or eight kitchens in Jersey within the last 18 months.

That’s interesting.

Yes. Jersey works without a showroom. People in order. They don’t need a showroom. A lot of them, if they do need to see the product, they’ll travel. Most jobs in Jersey are done by interior designers.

Okay.

So if the interior designer gives our product a thumbs up to their client, the client doesn’t need to see it.

Yeah, just give me the check and I’ll sign it up.

Right, exactly. That’s it. There’s been talk of Germany because Germany only really have one type of kitchen and that’s a German kitchen.

Okay.

Very beautiful, very good quality. Beautifully made.

Just like dark cars.

Soulless. A little bit soulless.

Not like, not like the cars. Unlike the cars. Yes.

Yeah, but. But it hasn’t got that handmade, hand painted element I see. You know, so, okay. Market for that out there. So I think if, if we were to do a showroom out in Europe, anywhere that would be other than major, of course, that would be the first place we’d be looking.

Well, I tried for Portugal, but here we are, folks. We’re not going to have Olive and Barr in Portugal anytime soon. I’m really sorry. Well, Al, I think we should start wrapping this up. I don’t want to take too much of your time. Most of our audience is composed of marketing professionals, usually from SEO or business owners like to know about SEO in different markets. I understand. As you said, 40% of your traffic of the leads you have come from word of mouth. I imagine a lot more come from ads. Not a lot more.

Sorry.

But the other rest, most of them comes from ads. But what about organic? Whenever we talk organic, we’re talking long term. We’re talking customer loyalty. We’re talking about making sure that those traffic comes to us and not to our competitors. Right, but you have so many things already sorted out, which is super nice by the way, that anyone would compel to like, understand. How do you really put your effort into marketing besides the word of mouth? Could you talk a little bit about that?

Well, you say ads, actually we don’t really advertise, so we ads for a while. But Google Ads, it’s such a competitive marketplace, you know.

Yes.

It just ended up being too expensive. So cost per lead just didn’t work out for us. So we gave that, I think about four months, a lot of input and then at the end of four months, we pulled the plug on it. We work with a PR company, they’re called Pursue PR now. They have been fantastic. We were with Sarah who runs it from the very beginning of her forming that company. They’re a lot bigger now.

Nice.

I think we’ve been together for about three and a half years, working together. They get us in about 30 to 35 publications every month. Some of them print, some of them online. But it really, really has got the brand out there. The brand is as well known as it is because of the. What we put into that PR side. And none of that’s paid advertising. That’s all. They’re really good. When a journalist needs an article, when a journalist needs a certain bit of input within their article, our guys step in very, very quickly, write some beautiful copies, send it over to them. So, you know, so we’re getting a lot, a lot of publications, which is great. Instagram still pays up a fair amount of it.

Great.

Very, very little. Now, Facebook used to be bigger, but it’s.

It is dying. Right. Whenever I open Facebook in front of my friends, they ask me if I was born in 1950. I don’t know why, but they usually like, how old are you to be using Facebook? You know, I just like it because of groups and having everything sorted out. But it is a dying app, especially in the concern of younglings going to TikTok or Instagram. Right. App Chat’s another one who I still believe is kinda around, but maybe not for long. And then we have X. Right.

Personally, I don’t do any social media at all.

That’s why you’re so healthy. That’s why you’re such a happy person. That’s it. That’s the secret.

Yeah. Just around Covid time. I just thought, I don’t want to look at this anymore. It just doesn’t do me any favors. So I get, we get someone managing our Instagram account. They get in touch with me when there’s a question that they can’t answer and I’ll answer that for them, but I just don’t get involved in it at all. Funnily enough, with Instagram, as you’re saying, with age, the only customers we do get from Instagram are in their 60s or above. Oh, really? Never.

How interesting.

Yeah, completely yeah, amazing.

Great to know. Well, and what about next year? Besides the New York showroom, If everything goes accordingly, anything you’d like to share, any news that you’re cooking up you would like the audience to know about, please, the stage is yours. Feel free to advertise yourself as much as you want now.

Well, if New York’s going to happen, it’s going to be very late next year, I think.

Okay.

So as for next year, continue where we are. We’ve had a lot of growth this year and I feel next year just almost need to kind of sit back and let that all have effect, you know, not think about too much expansion anywhere other than major. As I say, no more showrooms quite yet. Just. Just be comfortable where we are for a while. The brand itself, we’ve. We’ve been pretty good with awards over the past couple of years and we’ve entered into a couple of the big awards that will be announced for next year, and I’m quietly confident we might do quite well in some of those.

I’m going to be cheering for you, which is great.

Yeah. It’s brand awareness.

It is, at the end of the.

Day, brand out there and working as hard as possible on the brand. That’s the key to the next year.

Awesome. I think that’s the key to everybody. Like, even in personal terms, you need a good brand awareness. Right. You need a good reputation to keep on going, for people to invite you over for dinners to McDonald’s in the midnight, to watch the sunset on Sunday during the summer. And also it all, it is all about brand awareness for sure. Well, Al, I think this is it. I highly appreciate you being here with us. The folks you’re all who are watching, do please follow his Instagram page. Even though he doesn’t use social media, he still has a team who uses it for him. We’re going to be posting all of your pages here down below, either on YouTube or LinkedIn in the post. And. Yeah. Any last words before I leave you be?

No. Thank you very much. It’s been fun.

Thank you. It was amazing. Again, it was amazing knowing more about the kitchen, the shaker kitchen market especially. I think, actually, now that I remember, we do have one last thing to talk about. Once people look for you, they’re going to see the term shaker kitchen. I already know what it is, but do you mind giving an elevator pick about what is a shaker kitchen so we can wrap this up?

So a shaker kitchen is traditionally, it’s in frame, so the door is within a frame itself. It’s not sitting on the front of a carcass like a lot of kitchens would be on hinges. And it’s a panel in the center with a frame around the outside.

Exactly.

Simple terms.

It’s one of the most beautiful kitchens ever. That’s for sure. Amazing. Thank you so much. We hope to see you again in the show in the future. We wish you all the best in your entrepreneurs for 2025. Anyone else, if you have any doubts, if you want to talk to us, if you want to be featured here, let us know at Digital Web Solutions. You can call me@victoria solutions.com as well. And I’ll be here waiting for you guys. Thank you so much, y’all. Thank you so much, everyone. See you in the next one. Bye.